Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Jay Pole » Mon May 02, 2016 10:07 pm

NOYB wrote:
Albert H wrote:I can set up my analogue gear to sound just as loud as some of this nasty digital stuff, and mine is significantly less distorted!

I must admit to being a mostly analogue engineer when it comes to audio!
Well yes, I I guess most of us if we had the money would chose a reconditioned 8100A with XT2 chassis. In the meantime though a cheap bit of software is sounding 95% as good!
IIRC Albert is not a big fan of the Optimod stuff.

Regarding open source, I was pondering whether something could be achieved with a bit of command line jiggery pokery using "sox" - maybe using a fifo as a buffer. I'll give it a go later this week (unless someone else wants to try it out) and report my findings. Then perhaps the result could be piped into JMPX - or the necessary parts of JMPX extracted into a CLI only tool.

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Albert H » Tue May 03, 2016 8:11 am

I don't like the Orban stuff. I had a huge row with Orban himself when I was working over there. He insisted that "real time" processing was the way to go, and I showed (conclusively) that my way gave significantly less distortion!

The real trick is to eliminate the limiter attack time. Orban does this (sort of) by using a very high current dumped into the time constant circuit in the sidechain to charge the timing capacitors as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, the Orban limiter always overshoots, so there has to be a clipper after the limiter to chop the peaks off. This is gross distortion - if I wanted a fuzz box in my broadcast chain, I'd add one! On peaks, the Optimod shows 30% distortion - certainly not "hi-fi"!

I eliminate the attack time by using a delay line, with a delay which matches the attack time of the sidechain. This means that there's a fractional delay (typically about 1.2ms) which isn't really audible - there's more delay between your studio monitor speakers and your ears! Using the delay line means no overshoot, no pumping, no distortion, and no need for a clipper!
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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Maximus » Tue May 03, 2016 11:53 am

I knew Albert is more than just a pretty face. That post makes complete sense!

Unfortunately, as I'm a bit of a youngster, I prefer to switch off the limiters, as I think it makes the audio sound 'too soft'.

The presence and distortion is dramatically reduced. May as well not use a processor lol

For some reason, all of the English language stations in my area use Omnia.
A good friend of mine spent a lot of money making sure everything's Correctly set-up.

There's some other station down the road, with their mic processors set so high, I've never heard anything if the likes before. It's like a hollow sound but extremely loud!

For some reason, I don't think they're side banding, but haven't analysed their signal yet.


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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Albert H » Tue May 03, 2016 1:45 pm

Unfortunately, you DO need a limiter - speech (in particular) has huge transients that will cause overmodulation if not tamed, and no DJ has such a monotone voice that there aren't any plosives or consonant clicks that cause big peaks.

Most modern music is recorded with a very limited dynamic range - often achieved by recording much too loudly on to a CD, causing gross clipping. It's instructive to get two releases of the same CD - one from the mid-80s and one from the last 10 years, and compare their levels. You'll find that the more recent version is clipped to hell in an effort to make it sound "loud".

The music that I play and listen to tends to have a larger dynamic range than most current stuff, and compression and limiting is essential to broadcast it successfully. I tend to use a low-level expander (to get rid of record surface noise), a 2:1 (or up to 4:1) compressor to even out the worst excesses of the recordings and a peak limiter that catches the peaks from the records or CDs and handles the peaks that the microphone compressor lets through.

I find that multi-band compression can be useful - especially if establishing a particular "sound" for a station. One station that I set up in the Caribbean has an emphasised bass end and some extra top to sound better on the small portable radios that are common there. The listeners commented on how much "clearer" this one sounds when compared to the competition. It has a fairly relaxed compression, but very aggressive limiting to handle the heavy basslines that they usually broadcast.

Though I say it myself, it sounds damn good!

The other side of the story are the clueless gits that set up "Heart" and "Crapital". They've spent a fortune on processing gear, and haven't got a clue how to set it up. The AM Crapital Gold often sounds better than their horrible FM! They've just cloned the settings from American commercial stations and can't understand why nobody listens for more than 10 minutes at a time! It's truly horrible - over compressed, clipped and with a frequency response that must look really strange on their equalisers. This is an example of exactly how NOT to do it!

Back in the 80s, the Yanks had their "Loudness Wars". The station I was on used to pride itself on being the "loudest thing on the band". When the Arbitron ratings came out - and we were third in listenership - the management decided to screw the levels even further into the red! After a week or two of this over-compressed mush, we snuck in one night and "adjusted" the processing. The management never actually listened to the station, so they didn't know what we'd done, but were very pleased when we were solidly number 1 in the ratings for the next year! We got a reputation for "quality" rather than loudness, and our listeners would stay with us for hours.....
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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by NOYB » Tue May 03, 2016 6:06 pm

Albert H wrote:The AM Crapital Gold often sounds better than their horrible FM!
I agree 110%! and Radio 1, And Kiss....

I get the theory what you say about limiting vs delay (in fact my final year Uni project back in the 80's took the delay, quantify, adjust gain approach), but I also think that a correctly adjusted Orban (digital or analogue) sounds lovely. Omnias just don't seem to sound as good to my ears. I have not listened in detail for a while, but Reading 107 was a great sound using (I've been told) a 6300 unit...but maybe now it's turned Jack it might have changed.

The trick, as with many things is, "less is more"!

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by thewisepranker » Wed May 04, 2016 8:05 am

Radio 1 don't help themselves with the music they play. Sometimes when I tune in it sounds like they've just switched off. Ssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhh... Ah, no, it is on.

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Albert H » Wed May 04, 2016 11:28 am

In the earliest days of Radio 1 on FM, they used to use the AM processing for the FM feed - you can imagine how horrible that sounded!
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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by SundayGroover » Wed May 04, 2016 5:35 pm

Albert H wrote:the clueless gits that set up "Heart" and "Crapital".
Our Heart (Suffolk) is unlistenable (to my ears) - just a mashed up swishing effect, distorted treble, unnatural stereo soundstage, and poor mono compatibility.
Back when it was an ILR station in the 80s with just basic limiting the only thing I used to gripe about was the overdue stylus replacement!!

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by yellowbeard » Wed May 04, 2016 7:56 pm

Quick - do something digital and clever - we all showing our age now! What shocks about modern audio processing is how terrible the radio stations on sky digital sound, and they have no excuse that they are trying to help their signal to noise ratio. Another tuppence worth about modern music - when I were a lad we had lots of bands that made dodgy keyboard noises and they came out of the keyboard - now the dodgy keyboard noises come outta the singers... Whippersnappers! They have no clue...

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by SundayGroover » Thu May 05, 2016 4:42 pm

For my online processing I used a less intense setting - I believe for online stations some compression is still necessary to get the best from crappy laptop or phone speakers. On FM I used a bit more 'loudness' boost but still kept it sensible to retain some dynamics and a nice smooth top end.

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Maximus » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:41 pm

Please allow me to reiterate, I meant switch off the AGC feature on ST. Had way too many to drink again before posting lol

I feel as if the levels kept hunting (constantly going up and down and the other limiters had to keep compensating).


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Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Maximus » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:43 pm

Btw nice to be back. Felt it was necessary to take a bit of a break as I was getting too addicted to The Anorak's corner and not getting any work done. Got a lot of catching up to do lol

Hi to everyone :)


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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by NOYB » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:03 pm

Maximus wrote:Please allow me to reiterate, I meant switch off the AGC feature on ST. Had way too many to drink again before posting lol

I feel as if the levels kept hunting (constantly going up and down and the other limiters had to keep compensating).


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I don't agree Maximus. Decent (slow) first stage AGC is essential before the multi-band stage, otherwise as the natural audio levels change from song to song, the amount of multiband applied will also change. I too had the same problem getting the AGC right - ST is a bugger to set-up. Eventually though I got a very nice "effortless" open sound out of it. Most of the presets are way over the top!

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by radionortheast » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:03 am

i have agc on too, pre amplifier set to +4.22 db, post amplifier + 0.00, clipper drive +8.30 db, think those last two are just the same wheren’t changed I used fm stereo transmitter europe preset, turned off the stereo preemis transmitter is stereo.

agc target output is -6.34 db, raising the pre amplifier over to the right hand side the max makes it sound more distorted, volume gose up, of course risk of messing with the settings to much and you've got something that dosen't do much, guess really it should just sound the same if you bypass it but just kept at the same volume. :D

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Maximus » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:57 pm

I'm having a play with the AGC settings.
The "power bass" is pretty good


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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by Maximus » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:07 pm

I'll take back what I said. The AGC sounds really phat within the proper deviation :)


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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by dancemusicdj » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:48 am

Has anyone tried using the web interface on Stereo Tool and does it work for you? The reason i ask is the home page of the interface will load for me the first time, but when i click on any of the configurables the pages won't display and when i exit and try reload the homepage it won't load.

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Re: Stereo Tool vs Breakaway Broadcast

Post by NOYB » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:18 pm

Not tried it. I use Teamviewer for remote control.

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