Sinus 1watt PLL

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:33 pm

Zozo wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:04 am The original track size for my project was 0.80mm and I was getting just over 800mW with the cheap no brand Chinese 2n4427. I've now increased it to 1mm which isn't much. But I think my track lengths in that area of the PCB aren't particularly long before it's fed into the next stage or element.

If yours are 2mm, then I think that should be fine?
Yeh i think the 'Skin Effect' is a unavoidable phenomenon.

Minimising track length and voltage drop is always good practice.

Anyways i did more testing today and also dug out the original NRG VFO as a baseline reference!

I gathered some interesting results! It turns out that the new Sinus PLL is doing the same power?

I dont know if my meter is reading incorrect, or my test leads are lossy, or the original VFO is under powered?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 pm

That is interesting, so quite possibly all is working as it should, if the power output is identical.

I've never owned anything made by NRG from back in the day. I generally opted for Paul's stuff at Veronica, which the VFO was identical. But that's another story though, which you possibly already know. Anyhow I can't remember if it actually produced the full 1W?

I guess you need to find out if it's just a case of the design not being able to deliver the 1W, or it's perhaps your meter needs calibrating, or possibly there's something else causing the losses? i.e patch leads etc.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:25 pm

I think will leave it at that for now!

I am more than happy with the performance!

Whilst it is very stable and capable of driving an amplifier, It was never intended to be groundbreaking!

Although there is better exciters available! I will upload the Gerber files soon for those who wish to experiment. :)
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:34 pm

Yes defiantly Sinus, there will be many people wanting to experiment with making this exciter you've made. Plus give's experience with ordering PCB's and the building process, especially if that's something new to someone. ;)
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:48 pm

Zozo wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 pm That is interesting, so quite possibly all is working as it should, if the power output is identical.

I've never owned anything made by NRG from back in the day. I generally opted for Paul's stuff at Veronica, which the VFO was identical. But that's another story though, which you possibly already know. Anyhow I can't remember if it actually produced the full 1W?

I guess you need to find out if it's just a case of the design not being able to deliver the 1W, or it's perhaps your meter needs calibrating, or possibly there's something else causing the losses? i.e patch leads etc.
To be honest it is quite impressive considering it is only two stages! The PRO series all used multiple stages!

I think sometimes we can get caught up in this mentality of squeezing every last drop of power out of something that just wasnt meant to be?

It works great, Sounds great and is pretty clean! Happy Days! :)
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:58 pm

sinus trouble wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:48 pm
Zozo wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 pm That is interesting, so quite possibly all is working as it should, if the power output is identical.

I've never owned anything made by NRG from back in the day. I generally opted for Paul's stuff at Veronica, which the VFO was identical. But that's another story though, which you possibly already know. Anyhow I can't remember if it actually produced the full 1W?

I guess you need to find out if it's just a case of the design not being able to deliver the 1W, or it's perhaps your meter needs calibrating, or possibly there's something else causing the losses? i.e patch leads etc.
To be honest it is quite impressive considering it is only two stages! The PRO series all used multiple stages!

I think sometimes we can get caught up in this mentality of squeezing every last drop of power out of something that just wasnt meant to be?

It works great, Sounds great and is pretty clean! Happy Days! :)
Yes, couldn't agree more with that statement Sinus. Plus you can pair your exciter with some seriously high powered amplifiers without any problems, seeing as the oscillator is running @ 1/2 frequency.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:14 am

Zozo wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 pm I've never owned anything made by NRG from back in the day. I generally opted for Paul's stuff at Veronica, which the VFO was identical.
The VFO wasn't "identical" at all. Paul Hollings screwed up Stephen's design by omitting the balancing transistor load, so his version of the circuit was asymmetrical, and produced as much ½f and 1½f as the wanted frequency! He still hasn't corrected that basic error, and he over-drives subsequent stages in an effort to make them "no-tune", so his exciters produce really nasty outputs. Hollings tried to "simplify" (ie: cheapen) Stephen's circuits without any real understanding of how they worked.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:32 am

Albert H wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:14 am
Zozo wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 pm I've never owned anything made by NRG from back in the day. I generally opted for Paul's stuff at Veronica, which the VFO was identical.
The VFO wasn't "identical" at all. Paul Hollings screwed up Stephen's design by omitting the balancing transistor load, so his version of the circuit was asymmetrical, and produced as much ½f and 1½f as the wanted frequency! He still hasn't corrected that basic error, and he over-drives subsequent stages in an effort to make them "no-tune", so his exciters produce really nasty outputs. Hollings tried to "simplify" (ie: cheapen) Stephen's circuits without any real understanding of how they worked.
Sorry just to clarify, we are talking about the VFO version, which I assume that's what Sinus is working from? I only ask because you mentioned "No-Tune" in regards to the VCO version in the PLL range?

From what I can see is Sinus has added an extra Varicap to the oscillator to make it a VCO for the Pira PLL.

To me the Oscillator section looks identical still, if we omit the extra varicap?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:21 pm

I didn't look at Sinus' circuit diagram - I now see that he's used the old VFO circuit, sniffed the RF from the collectors of the oscillator, and added another dual varicap to turn it into a VCO. An entirely valid approach, but I can see some possible flaws:

1. The signal at the collectors of the oscillator transistors will have substantial amounts of ½f and 1½f as well as the required Band II signal. The PLL IC won't like the mixed signal, and it might be sensible to put a passive bandpass network in the "sniff" path, so the 1057 sees a clean signal.

2. The signal being fed to the base of the final transistor won't be the cleanest - the PLL PRO III used a highpass filter after the VCO on the way into the driver transistor, and the prototypes we were working on had Soshin-brand roofing filters between the VCO output and the driver input. This made for a very clean drive to the amplifier stages.

3. The output stage filter has to be critically tuned to eliminate all the crud, and to get the maximum gain out of the stage (tuning for the maximum smoke!). An improved approach would be an impedance match, followed by a low pass filter. This could be done without any adjustment points, as in the PLL PRO III.

4. Vcc3 (pin 7 of the '1057) should be filtered more on the way in. It's also useful to use a voltage multiplier to make Vcc3 up to abut 30V, so that the swing on the varicap can handle the whole band without the need for the need for the trimmer capacitor. I used the ICL7660S with a passive filter after it to ensure that none of the switching artefacts from the voltage multiplier made it into the PLL chip.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:09 pm

Nice one Albert, I thought I was going senile, I was thinking "what have I missed, they look the same". Anyhow there's a few good pointers there for Sinus to read over. I'm not sure how much further Sinus is going to take his Exciter too?

He might be like me and leave it be for a while, then sometime later re-visit it with some additional changes.

Talking of which @ Sinus. I remember somewhere on either this thread or another about your PLL Test Pin lock indicator. I'm sure you stated that the LED is on whilst "Locking" and goes out when "Locked" ​

I've probed the test pin and it seems that it's pulled low when locking, but after the lock state is achieved it's not pulled high but just floats.

I think even though it's floating, that's still regarded as a high state in logic terms.

Anyhow I wanted to try and reverse the action of the LED. I've quickly drawn up a circuit below which I'll test later, plus it allows a few people on here to peruse over it and spot any potential problems with it.

Basically the base of the BC547 is pulled high, but it's not able to because of the low state of Pin 18. Once pin 18 is floating after lock the LED should illuminate?
Test Pin Lock.png
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:21 pm

@ Zozo, Albert I think we can all agree that the PRO series were far superior to the Budget VFO designs :)

As for the design itself? I have not made many changes at all! My previous efforts used a single varicap to carry out both audio and PLL tuning duties which worked OK? But would compromise the audio in some instances.

The spectrum is as Albert predicted, Both 1/2 frequency and 2nd harmonic are present yet far lower than the carrier if aligned carefully?

The RF sample loop is something i have been thinking about? The RC combination filter is not great! Not only is the selectivity an issue, Robbing the oscillator of unnecessary signal plays a part too?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:43 pm

Zozo wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:09 pm Talking of which @ Sinus. I remember somewhere on either this thread or another about your PLL Test Pin lock indicator. I'm sure you stated that the LED is on whilst "Locking" and goes out when "Locked" ​

I've probed the test pin and it seems that it's pulled low when locking, but after the lock state is achieved it's not pulled high but just floats.

I think even though it's floating, that's still regarded as a high state in logic terms.

Anyhow I wanted to try and reverse the action of the LED. I've quickly drawn up a circuit below which I'll test later, plus it allows a few people on here to peruse over it and spot any potential problems with it.

Basically the base of the BC547 is pulled high, but it's not able to because of the low state of Pin 18. Once pin 18 is floating after lock the LED should illuminate?
Yes Zozo! The Lock LED is a tricky one!

I did experiment with NPN PNP transistors in many configurations, The output of pin 18 is an erratic square wave and only goes low when completely stable? That is partly why i was dubious of an OLPD feature.

With hands on testing making things more difficult? Even at a low state there is still voltage present on the base of the transistor but not enough to fall into the active region?

I cant remember for sure if i tried the 'Pull up' method?

It is deffo food for thought and will most likely re-visit at some point! :)
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:01 am

Yes it was just a quick idea I thought would be worth play with. Anyhow I'm not really all that worried about LED indication on the driver board as such. I think the OLPD would be nice, but I'm re-thinking that too.

I'm not sure how long it takes to achieve lock on your design, but for me its so quick! (again another thing I wasn't aiming for).

I think your design like mine is "No-Tune" ?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:30 am

Totally agree Zozo! :)

The Lock LED is pretty much for show more than any significant purpose.

Yes it seems that mine is similar to yours regarding lock time, The SA1057 is F*ckin rapid!! :lol:

Unless the trimmers are set to a silly range? It will lock within a matter of a second or so.

With regards to the OLPD? It would be a great addition? However getting it to function correctly is another story....
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by RF-Head » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:38 am

in my old design i used the led from the controller
That one will go on after 2 seconds and switch the bufferstage with it

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:28 am

I was considering that idea RF-Head. I'm not sure what way I will go with implementing the OLPD function as of yet. But whatever I do choose it would be switching the penultimate stage on after lock.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:14 pm

Ok this is just me thinking out loud so to speak. But after power up and the PIC16F84 has finished executing the code it has nothing else to do. It in-effect just halts, but why? Can't we get it to do something else. There's at least 1 register on the PIC16F84 that's un-used "RA0", and possibly another register that could be repurposed "RA1"

There's also another oscillator input that's not being used on the PIC "OSC2"

It's does appear the TEST pin on the SAA1057 gives something usable to work with in regards to "lock detection" as Sinus has proved already. which to quote in Sinus words as an "erratic square wave".

Q) "Is it worth taking this idea an further" or just "Not bother"?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:52 pm

Zozo wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:14 pm Ok this is just me thinking out loud so to speak. But after power up and the PIC16F84 has finished executing the code it has nothing else to do. It in-effect just halts, but why? Can't we get it to do something else. There's at least 1 register on the PIC16F84 that's un-used "RA0", and possibly another register that could be repurposed "RA1"

There's also another oscillator input that's not being used on the PIC "OSC2"

It's does appear the TEST pin on the SAA1057 gives something usable to work with in regards to "lock detection" as Sinus has proved already. which to quote in Sinus words as an "erratic square wave".

Q) "Is it worth taking this idea an further" or just "Not bother"?
Interesting observation Zozo! :)

Would you be thinking of maybe the TEST pin feeding to the PIC as a Lock state reference, then the PIC controlling the RF output?

The reason i ask is that i think with the TSA5511 setups, communication through data lines determines the state of Lock?

I do like RF-HEADs suggestion but unfortunately would not be a 'Fully active' solution to out of lock situations?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:20 pm

That's sort of what I was thinking. Perhaps I'm still somewhat obsessing with the idea of adding OLPD. I noticed the redundant register and thought why can't we keep the PIC active with another set of instructions to execute after the first set.

If the PIC see's a Square Wave on the "Test Pin" of the SAA1057 then pull "RA1" Low. If no signal then pull "RA1" High

The below image was incredible difficult to take. Firstly the PLL locks to quick, secondly trying to hold the camera at the same time as power cycling the exciter.

it's shows out of lock, and lock state of pin18.
PLL.png
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Zozo » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:26 pm

Just to add, It was a Square wave. I think the camera struggled.
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