Linking MPX using video senders

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Maximus
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Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:23 pm

Has anyone attempted to link a proper analogue stereo & RDS mpx using one of those video senders?
If so was the quality any good?

It was a quick thought as the high power 1.2 & 5.8ghz senders seem to be reasonably priced. Plus with a yagi the range is supposed to be rather phenomenal. Especially in a line of sight application.

A friend had some proper arqiva 2.4ghz rack mounted links but sold them very cheaply on eBay before I got the chance to buy them from him :(


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Albert H » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:50 pm

The problem with 2.4 GHZ is that everything else is there.

Years ago, before 5GHz became used much for wi-fi, I used a video link up there for about 450m between blocks. It worked OK, but the signal to noise ratio wasn't great because I didn't use much of the 6MHz wide video channel. Trying it again, I'd use very wide deviation.....

The best - and most secure - links I've ever done were in Band IV and V, with TV Yagis at each end. The gain from a TV aerial is huge, so you can go a long way with milliwatts! A TV aerial doesn't look out of place anywhere, so it's not easy to decide which of the dozens in a street - or even on a single rooftop - are being used. I linked 22 miles with two 48-element Yagis with just 100 mW going up the coax. It was fully noise-quietening stereo, and had a return telemetry path using the same aerials!

Look on the interweb for the Dutch 60cm stuff. They used to have an unofficial broadcast band up there! Modern UHF transistors make the electronics fairly simple - way back, I used endless stages of multiplication to get there, and used a pair of 2N3866s in grounded-base parallel to get my output. It wasn't easy. Nowadays, common devices like the BFR96 will give you an easy 250mW at ~500MHz and just cost pennies. Small trimmers aren't easily available these days (at sensible prices) so I use Lecher lines with capacitors to ground at appropriate points. An absorbtion wavemeter is essential for aligning these stages since trying to watch the spectrum analyser whilst soldering on parts can be tricky. I have a wavemeter with an audible output - as the signal strength rises, so does the pitch of the tone from it. This makes alignment really easy.

The link receivers can be based on TV tuner front-end modules. These are really cheap, and often include a PLL chip! The IF is normally 35MHz, so I mix that down to 10.7MHz so that I can use my normal PLL IF. The receiver sensitivity can be spectacular - and then you use a high gain aerial as well. The technology isn't too difficult, but some of the clowns throwing together rigs these days wouldn't have a chance. Most of them just copy old designs - even old layouts! I still see rigs using my 1982 exciter with the Colpitts oscillator, buffer (with the PLL take-off from the emitter) and a double - tuned doubler, into a BSX20 then 2N3866, with the voltage regulation between the 3866 and the last BSX20. Built properly, it's a clean and stable circuit, but it's certainly possible to cock up the tuning and generate crap.
I had one clown actually phone me up a few years ago to ask how to re-programme a 74HC4040 for a different frequency. Talk about clueless. I told him that if he couldn't work it out for himself, he'd better find something less technical to do, like flower arranging or train spotting!
"Why is my rig humming?"
"Because it doesn't know the words!"
;)

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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:07 pm

Thanks for the good reply Albert.
It totally makes sense with the noise level being affected by the carrier being wide.

The 60cm idea is very novel and seems to be a good route to take. I'll probably end up building a few at some point.

I'm howling at the 74HC4040 bloke.


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by radio-berlin » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:58 pm

Some years back I took a pcm modulator out of a 5.8ghz Anthony digital audio sender. I also took the rear was out of its receiver. I modulated this through microwave and it worked very very well.
If you tuned in on 10ghz it just sounded like white noise

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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:24 am

Good to see you back Mr Berlin.
I'd like to use PCM but I'm not sure if the modules will have enough bandwidth to handle RDS.
I would like to link roughly 20miles, but it is pretty much line of sight to some big hills.


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by radio-berlin » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:55 am

I could never get rds to work through it. So we just sent stereo audio then at the site fed that into a stereo encoder synchronised with rds there, we then had about 1w on band1 vhf to our transmitter, the mid point had 2 x small lead acid 7ah batteries with a small solar panel. This lasted all weekend then recharged during week

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Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:07 am

Sounds good. I was considering doing processing and RDS etc at the tx, but I think it'll be a pain having to replace everything every time the lot gets nicked. Especially with the amount of area it'll be covering which will be pretty much an entire county. I'm sure it'll be catching a bit of attention.

I've got a 60cm link transmitter and put it through the map plotting website and I should easily be able to link 20 miles on 500mw. Just got to sort the Rx end of the link on roughly ~500mhz


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Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:11 am

Albert H wrote:The problem with 2.4 GHZ is that everything else is there.

Years ago, before 5GHz became used much for wi-fi, I used a video link up there for about 450m between blocks. It worked OK, but the signal to noise ratio wasn't great because I didn't use much of the 6MHz wide video channel. Trying it again, I'd use very wide deviation.....

The best - and most secure - links I've ever done were in Band IV and V, with TV Yagis at each end. The gain from a TV aerial is huge, so you can go a long way with milliwatts! A TV aerial doesn't look out of place anywhere, so it's not easy to decide which of the dozens in a street - or even on a single rooftop - are being used. I linked 22 miles with two 48-element Yagis with just 100 mW going up the coax. It was fully noise-quietening stereo, and had a return telemetry path using the same aerials!

Look on the interweb for the Dutch 60cm stuff. They used to have an unofficial broadcast band up there! Modern UHF transistors make the electronics fairly simple - way back, I used endless stages of multiplication to get there, and used a pair of 2N3866s in grounded-base parallel to get my output. It wasn't easy. Nowadays, common devices like the BFR96 will give you an easy 250mW at ~500MHz and just cost pennies. Small trimmers aren't easily available these days (at sensible prices) so I use Lecher lines with capacitors to ground at appropriate points. An absorbtion wavemeter is essential for aligning these stages since trying to watch the spectrum analyser whilst soldering on parts can be tricky. I have a wavemeter with an audible output - as the signal strength rises, so does the pitch of the tone from it. This makes alignment really easy.

The link receivers can be based on TV tuner front-end modules. These are really cheap, and often include a PLL chip! The IF is normally 35MHz, so I mix that down to 10.7MHz so that I can use my normal PLL IF. The receiver sensitivity can be spectacular - and then you use a high gain aerial as well. The technology isn't too difficult, but some of the clowns throwing together rigs these days wouldn't have a chance. Most of them just copy old designs - even old layouts! I still see rigs using my 1982 exciter with the Colpitts oscillator, buffer (with the PLL take-off from the emitter) and a double - tuned doubler, into a BSX20 then 2N3866, with the voltage regulation between the 3866 and the last BSX20. Built properly, it's a clean and stable circuit, but it's certainly possible to cock up the tuning and generate crap.
I had one clown actually phone me up a few years ago to ask how to re-programme a 74HC4040 for a different frequency. Talk about clueless. I told him that if he couldn't work it out for himself, he'd better find something less technical to do, like flower arranging or train spotting!
I don't suppose you can remember which tunes you use by any chance Albert?

I've got the tx side sorted with a 500mw pll but am struggling to find the correct tuner cans. No doubt you'll know right away.

I have a TEMIC 4066 frontend here. Hopefully it'll be useful.

I was going to give MCES near Manchester a call but I don't think they're on the go anymore. It's a shame as they were very knowledgeable about tuners and very good at repairing them.


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Albert H » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:30 am

The Philips UV616 was always a favourite (also made with the same part number by a couple of other manufacturers). There are lots of circuits on the 'net for getting this one going. Elektor published a circuit using it about 15 years ago.

My way of doing this was the UV616 into a 45MHz filter, then an NE612 with a crystal oscillator to give a 10.7 MHz product. That then fed a normal 10.7 MHz IF based on the CA3189 (though I configured mine to work as a PLL for more sensitivity and lower distortion / noise - look at the "Linsley-Hood" FM receiver design from the late 80s).
"Why is my rig humming?"
"Because it doesn't know the words!"
;)

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Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:38 am

Spot on thank you Albert. That'll keep me entertained for a while.

Just found this pc tuner card. I've popped the lid and it looks interesting inside. Controlled by a TDA9800T

Image


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:20 pm

After a lot of searching, I've managed to find something half useful:
http://p-45.narod.ru/Mini-45.html

I'm really surprised that there isn't many more designs around that cater for wideband receivers.


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:30 pm

Finally found what I'm looking for.

Big thank you to Albert for the heads up:
http://www.kh-gps.de/fm1216.htm


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:22 am

Both the FM1216 & FI1216 tuners can be used with the above setup. Can't wait to have a play with them next week.


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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Albert H » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:02 am

There you go! Get a couple of hundred milliwatts up in a nice gap in the TV bands and use TV Yagis at each end. Remember that the TV gear uses 75Ω coax and connectors, and that your link rig needs to work into 75Ω too.

The FM1216 has a composite MPX output as well as the demodulated stereo outputs, so you can put RDS through the link too.
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"Because it doesn't know the words!"
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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by radium98 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:18 pm

http://busso.net/hw/tx-atv/index.php
thats a good one to use omitt the video part
i dont have part to homebrew one ,i will post an idea later to make an audio link wich also i need some helps from you expertz.

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Re: Linking MPX using video senders

Post by Maximus » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:39 pm

Albert H wrote:There you go! Get a couple of hundred milliwatts up in a nice gap in the TV bands and use TV Yagis at each end. Remember that the TV gear uses 75Ω coax and connectors, and that your link rig needs to work into 75Ω too.

The FM1216 has a composite MPX output as well as the demodulated stereo outputs, so you can put RDS through the link too.
The tuners are also cheap to buy as well. They can easily be found on eBay listed as:

Hauppauge WinTV FM

AverMedia AverTV Stereo Edition Desktop TV Personal Video Recorder

Conexant Fusion 878A Easy TV

Medion tv card

The tx side would indeed need the matching tweaking.

I was thinking about using one of these:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151610937391


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